Curse

Dax · Oct 19, 2005, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

Please stop debating the issue of whether the OP scammed or not. The runner inferred something that wasn't implied, and agreed to run the OP for free. The two parts of the sentence were seperate thoughts. "I have no head, will you run me for free?" There is no 'if' joining the two thoughts. The first statement is false, but that does nothing to the meaning of the question follwing it. The runner answered the question "Will you run me for free" in the affirmative. The OP, through shrewd wording and ethically shady actions got the runner to agree to a free run, therefore, was entitled to a free run.

I agree, couldn't have said it better myself

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

On the subject of running, I think running itself is a part of the game and needs to be dealt with as such. What I mean here is, there are definitly problems that occur because of running, but that these problems should be solved seperatly, not just wiped out by removing the option of running. Among other things, a filter for low level arenas for armor and elite skills (or just having been to Droknar's Forge).

I agree something should and could be done perhaps have some sort of compremise (sp). I would go a bit farther than just the arenas, that's just my 2 cents though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

I would have to say though, it is extremely likely that the developers did in fact intend for and facilitate being dragged through an area by a runner. With party zoning, the connection between between Droknars and Beacons, the ability to warp to any town that you have been to are all examples of how the game is designed to facilitate running through areas.

Perhaps, but I would guess not so much for low level players, and not an intentional form of transportation (not the runner but the runnee). Rather a way of helping get the party actually playing through. Though the devs (as I read through the interview) 'say' what it's intended for, they also contradict themselves by indicating it when it's not ok. It makes me wonder if it's a way to not fix it....it happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

It has come to my attention that it is theoretically possible to get a party of 8 to the quest "The Last Day Dawns" For a group to do this in the traditional manner (i.e. fighting their way there) it would take several hours. However, a runner could get to the nearest zone in just under an hour and a half.
What is everyone's opinion on someone running a group of 7 to this quest?

If you are asking if thats a viable reason for running, IMHO I think it would be as you have a party completing a quest who could technically make it. Big difference that running for someone who couldn't possibly do it

As a practical manner I can't say.

I think you made some excellent points though.

drakul · Oct 19, 2005, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

The OP, through shrewd wording and ethically shady actions got the runner to agree to a free run, therefore, was entitled to a free run.

Isnt that the very essence of a scam?
Whether the runner agreed or not just seems like a moot point, he obviously didnt know what was going on, as stated before the OP did, and bragged about it. And seriously if you were the victim of this type of ploy, in game or in real life would you get caught up on word play from some smartass or take your pound of flesh?

Did anyone take time to speak to the runner? I get the impression there was more to the exchange than we saw posted. Mentioned someting about a whole lot of trouble with one guy (ie OP).

But hey, you can do whatever you like to other gamers, just as long as you dont run right?

Dax · Oct 19, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakul

Isnt that the very essence of a scam?
Whether the runner agreed or not just seems like a moot point, he obviously didnt know what was going on, as stated before the OP did, and bragged about it. And seriously if you were the victim of this type of ploy, in game or in real life would you get caught up on word play from some smartass or take your pound of flesh?

Did anyone take time to speak to the runner? I get the impression there was more to the exchange than we saw posted. Mentioned someting about a whole lot of trouble with one guy (ie OP).

But hey, you can do whatever you like to other gamers, just as long as you dont run right?

No, the runner did know what was going on because he was advertising running. Whether he had a head or not is the moot point....and just because he was a smartass doesn't make him wrong unfortunately.

I didn't spreak to him, and yes we can only go by what is posted as people have said there might be more to this story. But the facts posted he wasn't scammed get over it.

So lets try to learn a lesson- If you're selling a service and someone asks for it free, say NO...unless you really want to give it to them for free.

Fenix Swiftblade · Oct 19, 2005, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

I agree something should and could be done perhaps have some sort of compremise (sp). I would go a bit farther than just the arenas, that's just my 2 cents though.

Yeah, there are definitly a lot more things wrong than just the low level arena exploiting, I was just using it as an easily identifiable example. (I said "among other things" in my post.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Perhaps, but I would guess not so much for low level players, and not an intentional form of transportation (not the runner but the runnee). Rather a way of helping get the party actually playing through. Though the devs (as I read through the interview) 'say' what it's intended for, they also contradict themselves by indicating it when it's not ok. It makes me wonder if it's a way to not fix it....it happens.

I think a party with a runner and party fighting their way through are mutually exclusive in a given zone. In one zone, if someone is running, and assuming he knows what he's doing, the part of the group that is fighting is only accomplishing xp and item gain. When the runner zones, all of the work they did (aside from the xp and items) is erased. In the next zone, if the runner isn't running, the group still has the option to fight, but this is a new zone. So, IMHO, thats all running could ever be, a form of transportation, a way to get a group of people from point A to point B without them having to do anything.
Also, in the interview, it is said that they have no problem with the overall idea of a player turning his running ability into a profitable in game buisness. But, they say there are all the problems that have risen because of this. And so far, nothing has really been done to fix anything. I do think Anet needs to fix these issues, and soon, but not by removing running.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

If you are asking if thats a viable reason for running, IMHO I think it would be as you have a party completing a quest who could technically make it. Big difference that running for someone who couldn't possibly do it

As a practical manner I can't say.

What about the larger issue of bringing a group of 8 to a quest that is normally done with only a group of 4, whether the group is run or not? Does running compound this problem? (If there is one)

Dax · Oct 19, 2005, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

Yeah, there are definitly a lot more things wrong than just the low level arena exploiting, I was just using it as an easily identifiable example. (I said "among other things" in my post.)

Ah ok, I got it. I misunderstood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

I think a party with a runner and party fighting their way through are mutually exclusive in a given zone. In one zone, if someone is running, and assuming he knows what he's doing, the part of the group that is fighting is only accomplishing xp and item gain. When the runner zones, all of the work they did (aside from the xp and items) is erased. In the next zone, if the runner isn't running, the group still has the option to fight, but this is a new zone. So, IMHO, thats all running could ever be, a form of transportation, a way to get a group of people from point A to point B without them having to do anything.
Also, in the interview, it is said that they have no problem with the overall idea of a player turning his running ability into a profitable in game buisness. But, they say there are all the problems that have risen because of this. And so far, nothing has really been done to fix anything. I do think Anet needs to fix these issues, and soon, but not by removing running.

I hear ya, it's just that it seems quite a stretch that the devs designed it that way, yet they don't want people exploiting it and they are monitoring if the good outwieghs the bad. Seems if the devs designed it that way all that should have been done in the beta stage. Suspiciously it sounds like someone discovered the exploit of dragging someone through. Instead of fixing it they just said that ah well that was our little secret we put that in.
It's pretty hard to undo something that so many people have have done and now unfortunately expect to do.

Keep in mind that I agree that people should be able to run through, just not a way that a level 8 (or whatever) can be dragged along because they die. Does that really sound like something someone designed intentially with all the magic spells and ease of travel?

Mavrik · Oct 19, 2005, 09:03 PM // 21:03

So you want everyone on your team to be alive to go through the portal? thats a load of crap really. Think about it. You and your friends fight to the end of an area, your out of res or for some reason who ever is alive doesn't have it. Oh well, your screwed. Please try again.

NOTHING needs to be done about the runners. The ONLY thing that needs to be done is correct the problems that can come from someone being run. And SO FAR the only probs anyone is having is elite and droknar armor used in lower arenas. Cap the allowed skills and armor lv. There is NO harm being done to you and how you play in PvE if someone on your team has elite skills or droknar armor. And people being run and asking noob questions in areas they "should not be in" is hardly a reason to stop runners... people are idiots everywhere even those that have finished the game.

Dax · Oct 20, 2005, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavrik

So you want everyone on your team to be alive to go through the portal? thats a load of crap really. Think about it. You and your friends fight to the end of an area, your out of res or for some reason who ever is alive doesn't have it. Oh well, your screwed. Please try again.

Umm...no I don't recall saying that. I don't think it should be used to drag a low level player through, how hard is that to understand? I assume you're resonable and know the difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavrik

NOTHING needs to be done about the runners. The ONLY thing that needs to be done is correct the problems that can come from someone being run. And SO FAR the only probs anyone is having is elite and droknar armor used in lower arenas. Cap the allowed skills and armor lv. There is NO harm being done to you and how you play in PvE if someone on your team has elite skills or droknar armor. And people being run and asking noob questions in areas they "should not be in" is hardly a reason to stop runners... people are idiots everywhere even those that have finished the game.

Gee how many times did I type that there is nothing wrong if people wanna run through? So let's cap the skill and armor for througout the game. What too much of a challenge?

drakul · Oct 20, 2005, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Wow, I couldn't have said it better myself. I think that's the major flaw with running (aside from the whole laziness part) is the fact that it gives the impression that's the way the game is meant to be played. Next time you yell at someone for being a Noob, realise how they got that way.

I would guess that charging runners never ask how many times you've played through the game...just in case I hear the lame o' rific "I've played the game through 6 times already so I deserve to be run" excuse.

I have to admit the OP's story brings a smile. Since there is so much enjoyment for the runner to run, if I had the gold I think it would be just as fun to screw them up....sorry I think it would. And I don't think there's a darned thing anyone can do...hrmmm.

Hmm so you are ok with runners you say? Maybe you are just misunderstood.

Seems you have a problem with running but not samming.

Dax · Oct 20, 2005, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakul

Hmm so you are ok with runners you say? Maybe you are just misunderstood.

Seems you have a problem with running but not samming.

No, I think it's the oposite- you are misunderstanding me. There are Runners who charge to drag people through, and runners who run to make it from point A to B. I know it's a confusing concept.

I don't like scamming, nor do I like cheap exploits. It does bring a smile to my face when someone does something I don't like that is stupid. And yes it would be fun to screw uprunners (who charge to drag lowbies around..just in case you're still confused). Don't worry though I don't do it, just a thought.

BTW nice try, since you can't convince anyone that the OP scammed the runner and all.

Battle Torn · Oct 20, 2005, 12:55 PM // 12:55

I think people can make their own minds up about....

runing for cash
geting run for cash
scamming
allowing yourself to be scammed
having good people in your group
having bad people in your group
helping noobs
flamming noobs for being noobs
giving items away
selling items to make profit

It all adds diversity but saying that scammers should be shot. Maybe they should have a way for rating people who trade (like e-bay) I had one guy muck about with the trade buttons offering, amending, offering etc.. finally offer me 0 gold for a green item I was selling for 15k, then he amend the offer to 1 gold thinking I would make a mistake and accept...lmao then he ran away extremely fast.

Its just like real life, hehe maybe we have human rights online too…. To make mistakes, to be good or to be bad if we choose, I sure dont want people taking away my freedom just because there are some bad apples out there. If I want to run for money I will, if I want to pay someone to run me I will simple as that (by the way Ive only ever run once and for free)

as for the noob argument ... why the heck should everyone be expected to be as good as you are? you wer a noob once remember! so was I. I personaly dont see what the fuss is about...ok someone can muck up a quest but there you go its an online game and everyone is not the same and it make for a more rewarding experience when you do find a good party and at the end say something like "great party guys" and add them to your friends list.

All in all just be careful.. thats all there is to it....nothing annoys me more when someone trys to scam me though Grrrr but it’s the price we pay for some freedoms the game allows you and prevents it from becoming too linear.... and lay off the noobs they just people trying to learn how to play the game.

Dax · Oct 20, 2005, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

I think people can make their own minds up about....

runing for cash
geting run for cash
scamming
allowing yourself to be scammed
having good people in your group
having bad people in your group
helping noobs
flamming noobs for being noobs
giving items away
selling items to make profit

It all adds diversity but saying that scammers should be shot. Maybe they should have a way for rating people who trade (like e-bay) I had one guy muck about with the trade buttons offering, amending, offering etc.. finally offer me 0 gold for a green item I was selling for 15k, then he amend the offer to 1 gold thinking I would make a mistake and accept...lmao then he ran away extremely fast.

Its just like real life, hehe maybe we have human rights online too…. To make mistakes, to be good or to be bad if we choose, I sure dont want people taking away my freedom just because there are some bad apples out there. If I want to run for money I will, if I want to pay someone to run me I will simple as that (by the way Ive only ever run once and for free)

as for the noob argument ... why the heck should everyone be expected to be as good as you are? you wer a noob once remember! so was I. I personaly dont see what the fuss is about...ok someone can muck up a quest but there you go its an online game and everyone is not the same and it make for a more rewarding experience when you do find a good party and at the end say something like "great party guys" and add them to your friends list.

All in all just be careful.. thats all there is to it....nothing annoys me more when someone trys to scam me though Grrrr but it’s the price we pay for some freedoms the game allows you and prevents it from becoming too linear.... and lay off the noobs they just people trying to learn how to play the game.

Not sure if this was directed at me for saying about being happy that guy didn't get his money. I would guess since he was a Runner, he wasn't a noob. He just was stupid to say yes to someone asking to run for free and expecting to get paid.

As far as newbs are concerned, I agree we everyone was a newb once. Perhaps that is why I feel the don't need to be rushed through just to get good armor. Let them play, make mistakes, and learn.

Seems like most people are scammed are doing something they probably shouldn't. There isn't too much in the game you can't get by yourself if you're willing to play through.

fergburger · Oct 20, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

I would guess since he was a Runner, he wasn't a noob.

I've seen plenty of noob runners. Being a runner hardly means that one isn't a noob... Just like being in RoF...PLENTY of noobs there.

Battle Torn · Oct 20, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

soz no this wasnt directed at anyone really... just making a general statment. I think everyone has a point both for and against runners.... I guess what I was saying is that if things were to be changed to prevent any running, scamming etc then before you know it we all could be playing in the same way doing the same things without the freedom to do what we want. Dont you like the feeling that you have the chance to level up quicker if you choose to get somewhere with a High lvl running you? and its up to you if you do or dont?.... or the chance of getting a bargain on a wepon cos they dont know what they have and either telling them they should sell for more or taking it yourself and selling it for more? .... I do and by that I mean I tell them what the items worth, but up to you if you dont and that should be respected as your choice. As usual noobs got brought into the fray and I think they need some help and encouragement (not in every situation though as sometimes you need serious players with you) and I dont think bad groups boil down to noobs being rushed through by runners. To be honest I have a biger problem with arrogant rude players most of whom turn out to be experienced players and turn nasty when things dont go their way (but I understand the frustration). Being fairly experienced myself I know too well how annoying most issues you may have with this game like the lack of good players when you need them, class predjudices, rushers and scammers... but its called freedom and its up to you on what choices you make and how you conduct yourself when presented with that problem that makes your experience worth it and shows others what kind of person you are good or bad....and hey good on you either way because thats one of the good things about this game if you ask me....its your choice!

FL Prime · Oct 20, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Wow! I'm not getting any work done today! I've read this whole thing from the begining and here's my two cents.
I am a casual GW player, I have three characters, one Ascended Mesmer and the other two in the jungle pretty close to each other.
When I was in the desert I was stuck on the Thirsty River (I think - thats the one where you fight the three groups at the end right?) mission for the longest time and I spoke with a friend who suggested I visit Droks first for armor. In frustration I gave it a try and sat at Beacons for a while looking for a runner. Finally ended up with a group paying 3k a head (and we all had heads

) Our runner gave it a good try but died so many times he finally gave us all our 50% back (we had paid half at one of the rezones) I never did make it to Droks by running but went back and finished my desert missions and ascended - now at THK. My one experience with the runner was great though: - we all ran with him in the begining to be expidient bait, after we died we chatted and were cheering him on as he attempted the run. I was impressed with his professionalism and honesty.
In retrospect I'm glad I made it to Droks on my own and I think I did learn to play my role better via those tough missions. My other two characters will not use runners either I believe. I am contemplating using my last slot for a PVE monk because they seem to be in such demand for all these later missions. I have delayed the startup of this character because of the dreariness of getting him leveled up to where he can do some good so I might use a runner in Ascalon maybe.
Anyway - alot of good points on both sides of the argument.

Dax · Oct 21, 2005, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by FL Prime

Wow! I'm not getting any work done today! I've read this whole thing from the begining and here's my two cents.
I am a casual GW player, I have three characters, one Ascended Mesmer and the other two in the jungle pretty close to each other.
When I was in the desert I was stuck on the Thirsty River (I think - thats the one where you fight the three groups at the end right?) mission for the longest time and I spoke with a friend who suggested I visit Droks first for armor. In frustration I gave it a try and sat at Beacons for a while looking for a runner. Finally ended up with a group paying 3k a head (and we all had heads

) Our runner gave it a good try but died so many times he finally gave us all our 50% back (we had paid half at one of the rezones) I never did make it to Droks by running but went back and finished my desert missions and ascended - now at THK. My one experience with the runner was great though: - we all ran with him in the begining to be expidient bait, after we died we chatted and were cheering him on as he attempted the run. I was impressed with his professionalism and honesty.
In retrospect I'm glad I made it to Droks on my own and I think I did learn to play my role better via those tough missions. My other two characters will not use runners either I believe. I am contemplating using my last slot for a PVE monk because they seem to be in such demand for all these later missions. I have delayed the startup of this character because of the dreariness of getting him leveled up to where he can do some good so I might use a runner in Ascalon maybe.
Anyway - alot of good points on both sides of the argument.

Yea, I gotta admit after reading your post I can see an example that running players can be a good thing. You gave a very honest and compelling account that I can totally identify with. Atleast you tried, rather that just reasoning that is the way to play. You realise (or so I assume) that the means don't justify the end always.

But having said that, the game is designed around casual gamers (just like WoW, CoH, and probably now EQ2) and sometimes you can't always get everything you want. Most MMO's are supposed to be a challenge played over time and someone had to make it without being run..that's something to ponder. I wonder who put the notion in everyone's head that everyone deserves everything in the game. For me atleast it's what I don't have yet that make me play

Dax · Oct 21, 2005, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by fergburger

I've seen plenty of noob runners. Being a runner hardly means that one isn't a noob... Just like being in RoF...PLENTY of noobs there.

Sorry again for the double post

Then if that's the case I would say that people who are at a level to run (and are noobish) probably shouldn't have progressed so fast. Not a exactly a good testament to running eh?

Fenix Swiftblade · Oct 21, 2005, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Unfortunatly or fortunatly, depending on who you are, Guild Wars has a substantial emphasis on PvP play. If I am wrong please correct me, but I'm pretty sure Guild Wars is the only current MMO-type game that will allow you to start with a max level character for PvP play. This, along with the fact that for some reason ANet decided to make it so you need to unlock almost everything good through PvE, means that there are a lot of people who only play through the PvE campaign to unlock things in PvP. A lot of people do not want to play the PvE game at all, and for them to get the most out of their Guild Wars experience, running is the preferable option most of the time.

With the new increased faction updates this has become less of a problem. But, for skills at least, and especially elites, leveling up a PvE char to get skill points remains the fastest way to unlock them. In my opinion, the reason ANet will never remove the ability of dragging a level 1 through a tough zone is because they will never include an unlock all skills button.

Unfortunatly, this still leaves us with several problems that need to be fixed.

If they would finally get around to releasing the update they claim will "eliminate the perceived need for running" Tyria might be a better place.

Dax · Oct 21, 2005, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

Unfortunatly or fortunatly, depending on who you are, Guild Wars has a substantial emphasis on PvP play. If I am wrong please correct me, but I'm pretty sure Guild Wars is the only current MMO-type game that will allow you to start with a max level character for PvP play. This, along with the fact that for some reason ANet decided to make it so you need to unlock almost everything good through PvE, means that there are a lot of people who only play through the PvE campaign to unlock things in PvP. A lot of people do not want to play the PvE game at all, and for them to get the most out of their Guild Wars experience, running is the preferable option most of the time.

Nope, you are right. In the beginning I thought this was a good thing, but I guess starting with a level 20 character in PvP isn't good enough. go figure....

You know as much as I give people crap about running I really would like a balanced game that embraces the best of role playing MMO and PvP for free...

tis sad...snif

Battle Torn · Oct 21, 2005, 11:09 AM // 11:09

another good point